KeepItPrinting.com

[TXReproShop]

I have a price list dated July 15, 2015 that someone sent to me in August.

It shows a MSRP of $61,110 for the 8000 as printer only.

PM me with a email and I will send the sheet.

[mark in vegas]

The exact amount they paid is above my pay grade so that's just an estimate. That includes the xl8000, stacker, additional paper deck and the PS license.
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Regards,
Mark
RVN 68-69
It's so nice to be insane
No one asks you to explain

[cmwade77]

Now we are running into a slight issue, apparently HP is telling dealers that they can only sell the ink if they sold the plotter to that customer.

I am wondering if it is legal for them to essentially tell us that we MUST buy the ink from the dealer that sold us the plotter?

The price difference isn't huge, but I don't like the idea of being told where I can and cannot buy my supplies from.

Additionally, I already know HP has told one lie in their product documentation (which all printer and plotter companies always tell) and that is that using 3rd party ink will invalidate the warranty. Now granted, personally I wouldn't use 3rd party ink on a plotter like this, as I know HP has done a lot to make the ink work right with this plotter, but I also know that it is illegal for companies to do this, so I am wondering if it is also illegal for them to prevent a company from selling ink to someone who owns the product?

To me, it seems to be creating a sort of monopoly on the supply and we know that creating monopolies would be illegal. Just look at what has happened with Apple and eBooks, etc.

[mark in vegas]

<Additionally, I already know HP has told one lie in their product documentation (which all printer and plotter companies always tell) and that is that using 3rd party ink will invalidate the warranty.>

You can use any ink you please but they won't support anything other than theirs. Can't warranty something you have no control over.
_________________
Regards,
Mark
RVN 68-69
It's so nice to be insane
No one asks you to explain

[cmwade77]

mark in vegas wrote:

<Additionally, I already know HP has told one lie in their product documentation (which all printer and plotter companies always tell) and that is that using 3rd party ink will invalidate the warranty.> You can use any ink you please but they won't support anything other than theirs. Can't warranty something you have no control over.

Obviously they wouldn't warranty the ink, but it wouldn't invalidate the printer warranty as HP has claimed, that would violate U.S. law.

But my real question is can they tell dealers that they can only sell ink to people who bought the plotter from them? My gut tells me that this practice would be illegal, as it creates a monopoly, but I want to know if anyone else has insight on this.

[TXReproShop]

I am guessing that no they cannot dictate who the ink is sold to or who it is bought from.

I have been involved in similar cases 3 times in the last 27 years. I have dealt with Xerox, Minolta and as recently as 10 years ago Oce on similar matters.

The key is finding someone affordable who knows trade and anti-trust law that will take the case and go with it. We were lucky to part of mini class action and it cost us nothing, but saved us $$$ and hassle in the long run.

I am not a lawyer, but I know things went our way in the above situations.

Good luck.

[cmwade77]

TXReproShop wrote:

I am guessing that no they cannot dictate who the ink is sold to or who it is bought from. I have been involved in similar cases 3 times in the last 27 years. I have dealt with Xerox, Minolta and as recently as 10 years ago Oce on similar matters. The key is finding someone affordable who knows trade and anti-trust law that will take the case and go with it. We were lucky to part of mini class action and it cost us nothing, but saved us $$$ and hassle in the long run. I am not a lawyer, but I know things went our way in the above situations. Good luck.

Neither am I, but is just seems to blatantly fly in the face of Anti-trust laws. I mean you want to talk about trying to fix prices and prevent competition, this kind of policy would certainly do it.

[mark in vegas]

Adding to what I said, I wasn't referring to the ink which if not HP wouldn't be warrantied. If the 3rd party ink caused print issues or affected the print heads or ink transportation system, and if HP could prove the 3rd party ink was at fault, HP would not be under an obligation to correct the issue. I went through this back in the seventies with third toner (i.e. Black Copy and others) and we had to be careful with what we said to the customer. In fact the courts decided that Xerox intellectual property, toner formulation, had to be shared with those that asked for the information. The rub was that even though Xerox shared the process there was no guarantee that the third party would follow the process. The third party guys are getting better at producing a product that performs but in my never to be humble opinion don't perform as well as OEM. I've tried refills in my home printers and the result was/is never satisfactory. I'll pay the extra money to get the print quality and reliability OEM delivers.
_________________
Regards,
Mark
RVN 68-69
It's so nice to be insane
No one asks you to explain

[TXReproShop]

Just for the record, along with what Mark is saying, we do not use non-OEM here.

My involvement was with where supplies were purchased, how much the supplies were selling for and service/warranty issues with those and extending into non-OEM products.

One last thing about the legal aspects of the Pagewide and I will stay out of it. Don't forget the MemJet lawsuit, looks like it did not go too well for HP in Germany if I read correctly.

[cmwade77]

mark in vegas wrote:

Adding to what I said, I wasn't referring to the ink which if not HP wouldn't be warrantied. If the 3rd party ink caused print issues or affected the print heads or ink transportation system, and if HP could prove the 3rd party ink was at fault, HP would not be under an obligation to correct the issue. I went through this back in the seventies with third toner (i.e. Black Copy and others) and we had to be careful with what we said to the customer. In fact the courts decided that Xerox intellectual property, toner formulation, had to be shared with those that asked for the information. The rub was that even though Xerox shared the process there was no guarantee that the third party would follow the process. The third party guys are getting better at producing a product that performs but in my never to be humble opinion don't perform as well as OEM. I've tried refills in my home printers and the result was/is never satisfactory. I'll pay the extra money to get the print quality and reliability OEM delivers.

As I said, I am not going to use non-OEM ink either, but rather wanted to show it as an example of how they aren't fully paying attention to the laws.

For something like a home printer, I would use a non-OEM ink, but not in a plotter like this, although in the KIP I did use 3rd party toner because the quality was substantially better and the cost was lower. But that is definitely an exception to the rule and we only tried it on the advice of our dealer who also was handling our repairs and said that it might fix an issue with some of our plots coming out too light and it did indeed fix it. But it was on the advice of our dealer who had incentive to keep our plotter working properly. I have not received such advice for the HP, nor would I expect to, so we will be sticking with OEM ink, I just don't like the idea of being told where I can and cannot buy it from.

[cmwade77]

TXReproShop wrote:

Just for the record, along with what Mark is saying, we do not use non-OEM here. My involvement was with where supplies were purchased, how much the supplies were selling for and service/warranty issues with those and extending into non-OEM products. One last thing about the legal aspects of the Pagewide and I will stay out of it. Don't forget the MemJet lawsuit, looks like it did not go too well for HP in Germany if I read correctly.

Looking at Memjet's technology and what I know about HP's, while the results are similar, I think HP has some distinct technological differences.

Also, strictly a guess here, but I would think that if Memjet becomes too much of an issue, HP could simply end up buying them out.

In all honesty thought I would hope that wouldn't happen, as there needs to be competition to keep the innovation coming and keep the prices down.

[CHILLIN]

While I'm not an HP dealer or a lawyer for that matter.
HP can't tell you who you can and who you can't buy ink from, but I'm sure they can tell their dealers who they can sell it too. It's probably in the dealer agreement in the fine print. Unless the HP dealer wants to risk their investment in the ability to sell the Pagewide systems.

[mark in vegas]

CHILLIN wrote:

While I'm not an HP dealer or a lawyer for that matter. HP can't tell you who you can and who you can't buy ink from, but I'm sure they can tell their dealers who they can sell it too. It's probably in the dealer agreement in the fine print. Unless the HP dealer wants to risk their investment in the ability to sell the Pagewide systems.

I'm not a lawyer but I play one on TV........been waiting years to use that one. I believe that would come under restraint of trade wouldn't it?
_________________
Regards,
Mark
RVN 68-69
It's so nice to be insane
No one asks you to explain

[CHILLIN]

The people that know the answer get paid a hell of a lot more money than I do. I would think HP could say that since they are not forcing you to be a dealer, but from what I've been told to sell those machines you have to have a demo at all times (KIP is the same) but HP is requiring the dealer to have 2 trained techs before shipping the demo, and then the dealer has to sell 13 machines in the first year or they have to buy what they don't sell. So to sell the Pagewide is a major investment. Dealers will have to make $$ anywhere they can since according to the previous posts the HP runs so good and cheap.

My question with the buying ink from the selling dealer is what happens when or if the buyer is unsatisfied with the service etc they are receiving from the seller? What about service?

[KIPDOCTOR]

Let's please get back on topic that this is a review of the HP Pagewide.
I understand the concern about the ink, but I feel that should be brought up in another thread.
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What we have gained in technology, we have lost in humanity.