KeepItPrinting.com

[CHILLIN]

I have only seen the new software through online training and Dealer information. It looks promising and really geared towards the color machines. Especially the new 800 series. I think there's enough changes that I will go take the training class KIP is doing for the new software.

Have no idea what HP has for software. For the record I don't sell or service HP's. I would hope if they are going to sell a "production" machine that they would have to have something besides a Windows driver. Something to manage, set up and submit the prints.

I'm sure HP will do well with the PageWide machines. It's an HP and I'm sure it will be a good product, but as far as replacing toner I doubt that will happen. KIP is committed to toner. Why? Cost per sq/ft. Toner is just cheaper. Also look at overall speed. Look at the new KIP marketing. KIP is really pushing the message of sq/ft per hour instead of sq/ft per minute as in the past. The 940 will print 3,500sq/ft per hour color, and 4,200 sq/ft per hour B&W. What's the output for HP/Xerox per hour? I haven't seen that number. Per minute the specs for HP are impressive, but in production environment, per hour is the real number.

I'm a fan of most refreshed/remodeled machines like the 940 is? MemJet looks good, but show me long term stats. Reliability in a real world environment. Users that use and abuse the equipment. Bang it around. Buy a $70k printer and scanner and use it for the world most expensive coffee cup holder. Not in a nice clean testing lab. Does anyone here have a large format MemJet machine they use in a production environment? How it working?

Good luck in your decision, and let us know what you get.

[MasterBlaster]

Uses K controller software is what I would be worried about.

USB communication has never been tested in the field

Not compatible with any printer software that has ever been sold by Kip.

Completely different setup and troubleshooting.

The software has never been used before on any printer.

Should be interesting.

[scott]

You can be sure I will review whatever we get, if we even do.

Thanks to both of you, largely my opinions also. We will see how it goes.

And down the road, if anyone gets either the Kip or one of the inkjets any real world opinions would be greatly appreciated.
_________________
Any ideas expressed are figments of my imagination.
Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.

[scott]

So, I am going to Novi for 940 training next week. The new 940 gets delivered the 30th. Give me a week or so and you will all get my honest opinion of the machine and the new software. Although if it is a really bad review there might be a new, anonymous member here!
_________________
Any ideas expressed are figments of my imagination.
Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.

[mark in vegas]

Looking forward to reading your first hand account. Are you C7800/Color 80 trained?
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Regards,
Mark
RVN 68-69
It's so nice to be insane
No one asks you to explain

[scott]

Nope. And other than a trade show demo, I have never even seen any of the color Kip machines.

Not looking forward to a week away from home, but I have never been further east than Dallas and never even close to as far north as Michigan. I hear they have this thing they call "Weather" and am interested in seeing it. I want to see this phenomenon they call "Rain", my wife swears we used to get small amounts of it, but I am not sure I believe her. We have fog and vague threats of earthquakes. I am fairly sure anything else is some sort of elaborate hoax! And electricity coming out of the sky?!?! Right, like I believe that!

Scott
_________________
Any ideas expressed are figments of my imagination.
Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.

[tjohnson]

i was fortunate enough to go to Detroit over superbowl weekend, the 2nd worst snow storm in their history, shut the place down the first day. The previous year I was sent to Atlanta for training, when they had the ice storms, shut the place down for days. I no longer schedule training in the wintertime, you should be good to go now that is late spring!

[cmwade77]

CHILLIN wrote:

I think the KIP 940 will be good. I have looked at the PageWide from HP, and the Memjet technology from Xerox, OCE/Canon & Reprotech makes one to. I may not be 100% correct on this, but HP is making their own Memjet technology and the others are leasing the technology from Memjet. I'm sure the HP product will good. Most of what HP builds is a good product. I think the speed spec are probably not what they claim to be. I know the Xerox & Reprotech that I saw at the show was printing big long 20 foot prints. It look really fast, but what they don't figure into the printing speed is the cleaning cycle they have to go through. I was told at the show that the Xerox & Reprotech has to clean the printheads every 5 cuts. Great if your running 20ft prints, but who does that? Most pages are 36x24. So if you do the math it more like 4 foot per minute average. The HP every video I saw of it printing, it printed 15 pages or 30 feet which is what I think the speed specs are (30 ft/min) then for some reason the machine stopped printing. One demonstration the guy said it must have run out of paper. Most likely it needed to do a cleaning cycle. On the Reprotech machine the cleaning cycle was around 2 minutes. Another thing I think is that there is no way that Ink on an inkjet can compete price wise with toner. Black toner on the KIP 940 for a 5% coverage on the page is less than a penny a Sq/Ft MSRP. Color is probably around a penny per sq/ft. The other thing I did hear was that all KIP machines from the 770 through the 9900 and 940 can be moved through a standard single door. The 9900 you do have to remove the fuser section to do this but it easy to do and doesn't take to long. Even the 940 will go through a standard door frame. I think the new 800 series KIP you will have to remove the rear of the machine as well. From what I was told the HP you will not be able to get through a standard door and it can not be taken apart to get it through. Seem trivial, but I think that's a mistake on HP. The 940 looks like KIP just addressed a few issues that the C7800 had. a REFRESH of the C7800 and lowered the MSRP price $15,000. Here's a list of changes to the KIP 940. Exterior: • The KIP C940 has curved front top covers. • The cover and back door match paper deck color. • The back door is more rigid. • A new power cord retention strap is included, to prevent accidental removal. • Bigger touchscreen 12.1" • The monitor is located on the left side of the machine and can easily be adjusted for individual viewing, and includes two front USB ports. • The printer uses System K software. • The embedded controller is called KCS using Windows 7 Embedded Standard 64bit OS. • USB is used for communication between the controller and the printer’s Main Control Board. • The I/F board & LVDS cable for IF/8 communication is not required. • Printer’s Main Control Board is changed and uses different Firmware and FPGA from the C7800. • A/C Terminal board. Power Switch and Controller Relay (now Solid State) are changed to comply with newer Energy Star requirements. • A larger more powerful Fuser Motor for durability. • Change the regulation roller (harder surface) to reduced unwanted background on some specialty Medias. • Density/ Color Registration sensor bracket changed for ease of assembly and calibration. • Change the position of screws for the Transport Belt Separation Guide for ease of removal/ installation. • Modified the sliders under the Developer Unit for reliability. • Change the material of Web Slide Rail – to metal. • KIP C940 Stacker is redesigned from the C7800, lowering the height for ease of print removal. • The KIP 940 toner cartridges are different. • The KIP 940 controller, uses high speed USB to communicate directly with the printer and no longer requires an internal I/F card. • Serial Number is programmed into the printer’s Main Board for System key code function/ activation.

For the new HP, I have asked for and have received some information that you may be interested in:

• Up to 9,000 sq ft an hour for line drawings.
  
• Cleaning cycle takes place approximately every 350-400 pages
  
• Average Printhead life is 32 liters
  
• Ink Cost assuming 5% coverage - Color - $0.0076 per sq. ft (each cartridge costs $240) --- B&W - $0.0056 per sq. ft. (each cartridge costs $150)
  
• Will come with software to send PDFs to the plotter
  
• Printhead cleaners are between $40-$61
  
• Can fit through a standard sized door

[scott]

That sounds pretty good. I will be interested in seeing the HP's.

I will review our 940 soon. Have had some issues that Kip has been unable to fix. Being a new machine I am giving them some room, but if this does not get resolved soon there will be a lee than good review.
_________________
Any ideas expressed are figments of my imagination.
Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.

[CHILLIN]

What type of issues are you having with the 940?
Curious I have one coming soon.

[scott]

My main recommendation is to be sure the firmware is up to date when you set it up. We had some fuser temp errors at first and the newest firmware resolved the problem. Not the end of the world, but did not make me terribly happy either.



I currently have some random jams that don't have a clear cause. It looks to me like the fuser and belt are slowing and causing the jam. I think it is the fuser driver board. Kip support is looking into it for me. I have a board on the way.

Any complaints I have with it is more an isolated issue with just this unit, not an issue with this model. I really like the overall build and think that after I get the few bugs I have worked out it will be a good addition to our print shop.

Even with a few jams the operators still run it almost all day. They love it, and they are a picky group of people.


The jury is still out on the new SystemK software.
Kip print can't send jobs to the SystemK printers and vice versa. There is no plan for a compatibility patch and they assured me a patch was not possible. I find this hard to believe, but am no expert.
We have adapted, the Print and SystemK are not that different interface wise. But having to run two different applications to run jobs to different printers is not a good way to make friends.



Give me another week and I will give a review.

I think you will like it.
_________________
Any ideas expressed are figments of my imagination.
Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.

[CHILLIN]

Thanks for the info. I will have the new 940 to install in a few weeks. I also found out about the firmware update. All the first SystemK machine had to have it.

[pq]

HP promotes their SmartStream software for use with the T3500, T7200, and T7100 (color. not mono version).

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/large-format-printers/designjet-printers/smartstream-designjet.html

It has all kinds of job tools to change print settings for each page (or all), sorting/sequence, color mode, collating, #copies, remove selected pages, extract small-format pages, separate BW from color (filter), job history, reprint, edit a job, etc.

Print PDF, TIFF, JPG and HPGL2.

You buy the preflight manager license, and a controller license for the specific model. Must be a PS model.

You can print to multiple printers from a PC (install the application on multiple PCs if you want...)

One of the supported printers must have both licenses installed (USB dongle). The application can be installed on multiple computers. Additional printers must have their own controller license/dongle. The license/dongle can be moved around as needed to other supported printers (good for resale/FMs). You hold on to the USB dongles after installing the license on the printer(s). You need them if you want to uninstall the license from one printer and install onto another.

When licensed, it will show up in the EWS.

There is some color management tools included in the application.

[pq]

They did add support for the Z6200, Z6600 and Z6800 PS.

Manage output for up to 10 licensed printers with one preflight manager license.

[scott]

We got our 940 running 100%. It was a simple issue and Kip was great in helping me out. When I asked they sent out a tech to help. He found the problem easily. Now every time there is a problem with any of our machines the production guys ask if they need to call a "real" tech. I remind them I have fixed printers longer than half of them have been alive. It doesn't help, they just call me old.
At least I can rest easy that I am not as old as Mark!


So far we are happy with it. The goal is for the 940 to run any color AEC jobs and be a backup for the black and white jobs. It looks like it is up to the task. The print quality is great and they have ran the hell out of it.

We have not ran any specialty medias so I can't answer questions regarding its graphic abilities, but the various bond weights we have ran look great. We are just doing color elevations, maps, etc...
When we get banner material and gloss for it I will review that too.

The software still sucks if you ask me. But I am an old, set in my ways tech. Change sucks. And that is what it is, change. It is closer to changing vendors than just a new version of the same software.
The whole shop nearly had a stroke when we went from PLP to Kip Print. Now they like Kip Print better. The same will happen with the system k software.

It is not the end of the world that the System K software can't print to the older machines (and vice-versa). It is not the best idea Kip has ever had, but production has gotten used to it and tell me it's not as big of a problem as they expected.


So far the only real complaint I have technically is the leveling of the machine. The level you get is accurate to 0.0005" per 10" span. I don't mind the leveling itself. But the factory does not give you a machined square-to-the-frame spot to use the level. You just sort of pick a spot in the general area it needs to be. It works, it just does not pass my idea of a proper way to do it. But I am slightly opinionated. And, according to my wife, critical of every thing.


Overall I am not sure this will save Kip from the newer high speed inkjets. But it is the best hope Kip has, and this works.
I am still waiting for these new inkjets to overturn the industry, I haven't seen it yet.


Scott
_________________
Any ideas expressed are figments of my imagination.
Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.