KeepItPrinting.com

[A Kip dealer (for now)]

Even I can't believe KIP on this one. I had one of my techs in a 3000 training class in L.A. He calls me tonight to tell me that one of the techs was forcibly removed from the class. It seems this tech was the owner of a dealership that was selling other lines that KIP didn't like. He was also selling outside his general selling area. Well KIP until you come up with exclusive territories and protect your "valued" dealers, we will all continue to sell this way. It is a global market thanks to the internet and I for one will continue to take advantage of it.

As far as removing this guy from the class, according to my tech he was one of the nicest guys you could have met. He paid his own money to get there and stay in a hotel and just like that you are kicked out? I have said it before and will say it again, KIP managment is the worst I have seen in all of the companies I deal with. Time for a change from the top down. Be a man like Mike Brown of FEMA. You are a small headed management of a semi large company. You are destined for failure. Save the company and step down.

How can a dealer sell this product in fear that the Nazi will show his ugly head? Sorry KIP, I had to call you out on this one. I owe it to my fellow dealers. I for one will not be intimidated. Who's with me?

[Long Time KIP Dealer]

While I have not always been especially happy about the way KIP does things, I feel the need to present another side to this argument.

As for selling outside his area, the only legal way to restrict dealers is to offer them protection. For that, a dealer would have to pay for his territory. (not real popular idea). Selling outside ones "area" is unlikely the real reason that the tech was removed.

As for enforcing dealer loyalty (not selling other brands) every manufacturer of every product practices this to the extent that their strength in the marketplace dictates. Some do it with the carrot, some with the stick.

The 3000 is going to put KIP in a very strong position with regard to exclusivity. Why shouldn't dealers who have remained loyal to KIP during the 2000 fiasco and not run to Ricoh or Xerox, not be rewarded or afforded protection.

The impending success of the 3000 will bring about many "bandwagon jumpers" who will try to jump on the 3000 unitl something better comes along.

When fighting a war, better to have 100 loyal soldiers than 500 mercenaries.

It has been my long experience that KIP eventually does the right thing long term.

As for the "for now", who are you kidding? Where are you going? Oce has nothing new for years. Xerox has nothing that works, and Ricoh is a cheaply made piece of s#$^.

There are most likely many more underlying reasons that this person was removed from class. That is between KIP and this person. (at least until the "soldier in question" posts here.

Sorry to ramble, but we are businessmen first. We have responsibilities to our families, employees, customers, and even vendors. A poulist uprising aginst KIP, as their market position is about to become even stronger, is both ill-advised and shortsighted.

LTKD

[guest]

Hey long time KIP dealer, did you remember to punch in on the KIP clock this morning? Man, this is becoming just like the OCE forum used to be with KIP employees posting "anonimously".

Sherman, it that you?

Anyway, KIP does have the best product right now, I agree. But poor management decisions can hurt any company. Kip isn't exactly attracting and keeping the best employees lately. Why is that? I haven't seen or heard from a happy KIP rep in a very long time (or even an unhappy one).

My rep spends all his time with a big box dealer that will turn on them in a heartbeat. It is us small to mid size dealers that built KIP. Do not stray from your roots too far. You may never find your way back.

[LONG TERM KIP DEALER]

No, I am not Sherman, or any other KIP employee.

Your second post tells us the rest of the story. Let me see if I have it right.

Old time repro shop/"KIP Dealer" has area pretty much to himself. Gets to charge list price for everything and spends nothing on service.

KIP appoints "Big Box" copier dealer complete with sales and service and everything.

BBD moves many boxes and drives down prices. KIP rep spends his time there because that is where he makes his money!

Want a rep to kiss your ass? Buy some machines, and try paying cash!

There is no whining allowed here. Don't like what KIP is doing, try Xerox, Ricoh, or Oce. KIP is being guided by market forces, nothing else.

As the Intern often says, "there is always somebody smarter nad hungrier out there."

LTKD

[Desertdog]

Hey, A KIP Dealer(for now),
If you are as upset as you appear in your first post, and, if you are a Dealer, why didn't you post your feelings on the "offical" KIP forum? Just curious.
_________________
"Learn how to work, Kid" - BTLS

[guest]

No actually I am not (thank god ) a repro shop.
I am not a big box retailer either. I am a small independant cadd supply house that helped build the KIP dynasty when no one in thier right mind would sell "that piece of crap KIP". I believed in KIP way before it was cool to beleive. My problem is not with the sales rep not seeing me. I could care less. The way I see it that tech that got booted from the class could have very easily have been mine or yours for that matter. Do I really want to work my ass off for a tyranical run company like KIP. Not really, but the 8000 is one hell of a machine. I have made lots of cash from that unit. And without very good tech support, I might add. My problem is really that KIP is headed down the same road that knocked OCE from thier perch. The attitudes from corporate are changing day by day. The head office is very much getting to the point where they will be happy to maybe give you the "privilege" of selling thier box. We all would be wise to look before we put all of our eggs in this basket. Kip needs a reality check before they get too big for thier britches.

[guest]

Desert dog, you know as well as I do that KIP censors the posts on thier forum. Have you ever noticed how some topics just magically disappear?
For now this forum hasn't done that. Isn't that why we come here?
Hopefully the doctor won't feel any need to censor here.

[jojobutthead]

I've never heard of anyone yanked out of school because their Dealer sold another brand. I'm not sure where that would get Kip. I have sat in Kip classes with self servicers and with 3rd party servicers that contract to the dealer or repro house with no loyality to the dealer let alone to Kip. The best way for Kip to prevent this is to build superior boxes like the 8000. Many dealers service other equipment and brands with hope of getting the upgrade, which means more business for Kip. Since I'm an independent and a Kip dealer. I would not sell another brand under the same name or store front. I sell Kyocera and Kip I run 2 seperate business names. I have had Kip on my line card a long time and may not have a recent dealer agreement. But the agreement I have does not define a terriorty or a non compete. Oce's does define areas and non compete, Kyocera does define areas by zip code and Xerox agents have a terriorty, dealers do not.
It's widely known in the industry that bad products create holes in the line card a savy dealer will fill those holes. The largest Kip dealer I know sells Ricoh and Kip out of the same door. I try to fill the holes with reconditioned machines that I trust, like 9810's and 7095 along with an occassional Xerox. I sell Kyocera for a entry line and if the 3000 is half the machine people say it is I wll drop the Kyocera line from my card. So where would it be to Kips advantage to try to change that unless they know that the 3000 isn't the box.
It's to the dealers advantage to limit what he sells instead of selling everything. Less training, less inventory, more expertise. It's Kips duty to supply me with the best boxes. If this happens it's a win win.

[Kipintern]

The deal is this !!!

Long term may not be kip direct but sounds like he has some arrangement or his head up their ass or Maybe they have something over him.

Its a hand full of Guys out there that piss and moan about another independent or competitor that may have customers out there that extend past the town,city or state you maybe in.

Anyone here about a company called Arc, or how bout the internet, dont we all advertise there/

Some of the stone throwers better beware, There are several of them out there Like large Kip dealers selling outside state lines as well, as well as Companies that have Coorporate HQ set up in one state and Satelittes in another. If I am there and they are mine first no matter where they are if i can support them you should.

Its guys that just abondone them after the quick buck that are wineing!!!

Looks to me that a few people should throw some stones back and others should be quite.

Dont you think Selling over state lines toner at a price a regualr kip dealer can get it at wont piss a few off too!

We need to band together and stick to the point Help the little Guys and Keep It Printing, Kip style.

We need to realize there is enough to go around and Thats its.

LTD I agree There are guys smarter, Sharper, and far wiser and Hungrier than others But it seems to me the BIG Guys are the biggest punks, they forgot they where small to!!!

I treat it as a game. My team and theres or many, we all start on the field, If my guys do the job better I win, you do it You win !!!

But I dont cry and wine to mommy if you loose, or if you screw up your customers machine and they had enough and call someone else !!!

I believe the integraty of the companies crying is a f'ing joke.

50 mil or 100g Companies,We all put our pants on 1 leg at time However I Know whats hanging between mine is far bigger than any of those companies.

We here for the most part have Knowledge,Respect,Intergraty,Unity and Heart and its shame when this happens.

And for JOJO Get your head out of the clouds, Ask anyone here and they can name several people booted from classes in the past.
Plus you have taken customer away from independents as well and over charged the client to boot !

Kip is the best out there, but, we the people need to show them way of the future, Ever here of History repeats itself?

Once it was small guys selling and then the big guys, Now its comming around cause the fools in the Big companies have too much overhead and ego's to match!!!!

lets help each other out here. And remember this is only my opinion and remember what they say Opinions are like ASSHOLE's we all have them !!!!

[Guest]

It is nice to know that rumors are spread like little school girls on this forum. Lets be adults. To use the term "forcibly removed" is a BIT of an exaggeration. There are only a few people that know EXACTLY what happened, I guarantee that NO ONE from this forum was there to see what happened, no was any one from this forum involved in the decisions or conversations that brought this about.

If you want to spread rumors, then go back to grade school. I would think that a professional buisinessman would have the intelligence and integrity to act like one instead of acting like a child.

[Kipintern]

Guest,

I am sure you are right about that, The Big K would never let anyone in training that post's on here.

But if you possibly know something or maybe you could enlighten us on what happened, where you There? if Not then how could you say it wasnt forcable?

I have posted on the The Big forums and my info was removed!

That doesnt help now does it, at least the doc edits it,
Cause most of the poster's here CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

and thats all I ever speak !!!!

And As for Professional lets talk about that, Is it professional for sale's rep's to get extra $$$ incentive from larger dealers to move boxes?
Last I knew I though that would be either a conflict of interest or bribary.

Non the less I agrree Forcably may be a little lie, But as you said We certianly will never know.

[KIPDOCTOR]

I feel the need to step in here. I want to make sure that this forum is not being used for propaganda spreading. If anyone was there or knows any details about this, please step up and give us facts. I personally have never had to eject a student from any classes I taught for K mart. Nor would I have done it if asked. It just is not right. You need to determine if someone is enittled to a class long before they get there. Any real company knows that. Let's not let this get out of control. I am going to step aside here and watch what happens very closely.
Play nice you little grade school hotties.
_________________
What we have gained in technology, we have lost in humanity.

[Guest]

Quite the pissing match we got here!!!!!!

[scott]

I am going stick up for Kip here.
I know the people at the irvine office, and I have a hard time believing that they "forcibly removed" anyone.
The Kip I deal with seems to be a diffrent Kip than others here are talking about.
Kip is not perfect, not by a long shot, but they make a great product. They give good tech support, regardless what others here have said. I have also dealt with Mita, Oce, and Ricoh, and they ALL have their faults.

So lets not turn this into the oceforum.

End of story!!




Scott

[007]

Here's What Mother England has to say.

According to our photo's from our Button Cam's.

The Student in Question WASNT PRESENT ON THE CONFIRMATION EMAIL SENT TO THE CLASS INSTRUCTORS!

This means somewhere along the line he was penciled in.

Therefor it probally has underlying issues which allowed this person in and the when word got out he was told to leave not forcibly

So Something shady was going on there, Some wool pulling.

And for the Kip Dudes I agree Not one of them could forcibly remove anyone! Nor would or should we believe those guys would either!

If someone would have said Forcalby in Detroit I would take stock in that one, But Calf, No way no how! The nicest guys and the most timid guys you ever want to meet !

So Lets stop with the bs and Move.